Undergrads are stupid? Blame the universities for teaching C and Java

https://archive.rebeccablacktech.com/g/thread/61460559/
/g/ is where CS undergrads hang out. The quality of knowledge of /g/ reflects the quality of their education.

In Brazil you have C in introductory classes, second semester is C and assembly. Why are american CS classes such a joke?

The only way to teach someone properly is:
>pseudoassembly language to make the students get the basic principles of how a computer works (without introducing any platform specific stuff)
>C, to teach basic imperative programming and also memory-related matters
>modern C++ for introduction to OOP, templates etc, and also to make the students understand that automatic memory management is possible without a garbage collector
>a modern OOP language (C#, or possibly Java)
>a meme piece of shit scripting language (most likely Python)
>a pure functional language (most likely Haskell)
>SQL, an actual assembly language and webshit languages (Javascript, HTML, CSS) somewhere along the way

This way you get the full picture, a thorough understanding, and you do it in the proper ascending order of abstraction from the hardware layer.
That's what my university did in my CS course, and it was worth it.
And this order makes retards fail quickly, so here's another upside.

I like Java, its the comfiest language. But I wouldn't trade having my 101 class in C for anything. I believe it was a very valuable experience. Plus, it helped me with OS, Systems programming, and computer architecture later on down the road. Not teaching C just fucks students over later. Maybe it's for the best though cause ee need less JS script fags scraping out a CS degree and calling themselves developers anyway. Stallvolution will eliminate them from the equation.

As a CS major who was taught Java first then C and C++ later. Java was easier to learn, but I wish I was introduced to the complexities of C first. One big thing that I can think of is that Java has a garbage collector so you are basically allowed to write shit code. Once we started learning C, that shit wouldn't fly and the idea of memory allocation was lost on many.

C might be harder to learn, but for CS it's a better foundation imo.

>>40
Java and Objective-C are more popular than C. Does that mean C is now DEPRECATED?

>>38
Who the FUCK takes a language's popularity into account when creating an application?

When someone wants to make a windows program, do they choose PHP instead of C# and such because it's more popular?
Do people choose to write shell scripts in node.js because it's hip?
If some idiot is worried about safety, do they write in C because they heard it gives better performance?

Stop drinking the koolaid and think about it logically. C isn't what's ``ruining universities'', as there are other reasons for it.

I will pray for you to see the light.

>>42

Who the FUCK takes a language's popularity into account when creating an application?

The universities and companies that are destroying programming. They take popularity into account when teaching too. These CS graduates never heard of some very important programming languages and they think everything came from C, C++, and Java.

When someone wants to make a windows program, do they choose PHP instead of C# and such because it's more popular?

I haven't seen it, but I have seen Windows programs with JavaScript.

Do people choose to write shell scripts in node.js because it's hip?

Yes, they do. I saw node.js scripts that had no reason to use JavaScript. They are using node.js in the backend on mainframes.

If some idiot is worried about safety, do they write in C because they heard it gives better performance?

If they're an idiot, yes. Have you heard of the F-35?

Stop drinking the koolaid and think about it logically.

I am thinking about it logically. There is a lack of Cobol, Ada, etc. programmers because CS grads do not know how to program. If you know programming, you won't have a problem using these languages, so there must be something wrong with education. These are not people who went to a Java coding boot camp, they are university computer science graduates.

C isn't what's ``ruining universities'', as there are other reasons for it.

Teaching C is ruining universities. It is dumbing everyone down. All of your rhetorical questions are actually happening.

I will pray for you to see the light.

I will pray for universities to see the light.

>>43

These CS graduates never heard of some very important programming languages and they think everything came from C, C++, and Java.

I can confirm this is true. I've heard a lecturer say that structures were invented by the developers of C++ to make programming easier.

Teaching C is ruining universities.

No. Under qualified people teaching concepts they themselves do not know is ruining universities.

Also please check my repeating number privileges.

>>44

I can confirm this is true. I've heard a lecturer say that structures were invented by the developers of C++ to make programming easier.

It is exclusively C/C++/Java lecturers who say this in universities. They say C was the first standardized programming language. Some of them say everyone ``coded in binary'' before C. When someone online says something obviously wrong like this, they're repeating what their professors said.

No. Under qualified people teaching concepts they themselves do not know is ruining universities.

That's the same thing. People who only know C and C-based languages are under-qualified and don't know the concepts. They create a new generation of graduates who are under-qualified and don't know the concepts.

Also please check my repeating number privileges.

Checked.

>>43,45
See >>39

We've had this discussion for decades.

>>47
and we have become exceedingly inefficient at it

>>47
Yeah, but they never end with both side agreeing.

>>49
or dieing.

>>50
dying*

>>50
If they die, the next two groups will argue about why Rust is an introductory language instead of Ruby on Rails.

>>52
Rails is so 2007.

I blame OP

CS isn't about programming, so idk why you want them to teach assembly or some shit like that

>>55
They should go back to teaching pascal.

>>56
They should go back to teaching lambda calculus.

>>55
They aren't learning anything about CS. What are they learning by downloading frameworks on Github and reading bad answers on Stack Overflow?

>>56
Pascal would take away their fear of ``native code'' and it would crush the ``hacker'' domination. These ``hackers'' tell you that programming is ``confusing'' and ``too complicated'' unless you do it in JavaScript running on Chromium in a Linux VM running in Docker. They tell you that you can't build anything unless you have millions of lines of code written by idiots included in your application.

hax my anus

>>58

They aren't learning anything about CS. What are they learning by downloading frameworks on Github and reading bad answers on Stack Overflow?

This doesn't happen.

These ``hackers'' tell you that programming is ``confusing'' and ``too complicated'' unless you do it in JavaScript running on Chromium in a Linux VM running in Docker.

This doesn't happen.

>>60
The stack overflow one most likely does

>>60,61
9367964f39f9dbaa70a58ec081bef745e2688b14197868cbfd803c4e287a410a.pdf

www​.cs.cmu.edu/.../2016-lecture1.pdf

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~15751/2016-lecture1.pdf

Slides 17 and 54

>>58
how are 'hackers' telling you those things? hackers in C/Unix sense are telling you to use simple/minimalist low-level tools (yeah, I know, C isn't the only way to do low level stuff) and to do open source/free software stuf. hackers in Lisp sense are telling you to experiment interactively and build your own abstractions through metaprogramming. hackers in security sense tell you to see what lies beneath the abstractions and use it to your advantage. none of them tell you to use javashit inside docker - that's a mindset of trendy startups (and corporations which ape startups in a cargo-cultish way to appeal to appers), not hackers

>>62
Stack Overflow isn't that bad.
You can sometimes get high quality answers.

>>63
that's why he used it in quotes

>>65
no, he's the guy who's obsessed with how evil the C and Lisp programmers are. 'mental midgets' and all that shit.

also, check'em

>>63
``Hacker'' has a lot of meanings, but I'm using it to mean someone who ``hacks'' (the code they produce is also called a ``hack''). Wiktionary is not a ``reliable source'' but I will use it because some of the editors are hackers. Some people can be more than one kind of hacker. UNIX is a hack in this way too because of the low-quality solutions and all of the ``temporary'' hacks that became permanent parts of the C and POSIX/UNIX standards.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hack

To make a quick code change to patch a computer program, often one that, while being effective, is inelegant or makes the program harder to maintain.

An expedient, temporary solution, such as a small patch or change to code, meant to be replaced with a more elegant solution at a later date.

band-aid, contrivance, improvision, improvisation, kludge, makeshift, quick fix, patch

This one also applies to many of these ``hackers'' even though it's not directly related.

One who is professionally successful despite producing mediocre work. (Usually applied to persons in a creative field.)

OVERFLOW MY STACK

A question to >>1-san: did you finish/go to university?

Java is a gross language. It's just so verbose, and I don't think that's C's fault

>>70
C++ is the same thing.

>>67
https://stallman.org/articles/on-hacking.html

>>71
Java improved on the verbosity.

>>72

You know how each one got there: an overnight hack to paste another tumor onto a wild cancerous growth.

Does ``overnight hack'' mean overnight ``playfulness, cleverness, and exploration'' or overnight ``band-aid, contrivance, improvision, improvisation, kludge, makeshift, quick fix, patch''?

>>74
yes